From: Chris Jennings [cjennings@ntpmeridian.co.uk] Sent: 22 July 2004 09:01 To: Boughtflower, Stewart Mr (DSDC) Subject: RE: Reply All this sounds good. So young ilin-class girls do learn (basic) ilin skills. Some go on to be full-blown ilin themselves. But they also learn more 'feminine' skills, which is where most end up specialising and making their careers. 'Feminine' skills include (probably): languages, literature (reading and writing it), mathematics, management, politics (including 'gossip', heraldry, 'dynastic studies'), economics (in both the modern and the literal senses: its Greek for "household management"). Which are all available for boys too (in the same way that ilin-skills are available to girls, and about as frequently pursued in adult-hood?) but boys usually prefer to try to be ilin first. [Several of the less effective emperors probably spent too much time being ilin and not enough being politicians/managers.] Anyway, seems to work, but points to a less male-dominated society than first (or even second) impressions imply. It seems that the character, personality and motives ('agenda') of "rulers" wives is going to be as important, or even more important than the men themselves. Reminiscent of the American system of voting in a 'President' and a 'First Lady' together, almost as a 'team'. Only more so - because the 'First Lady' will have greater real power. I would suggest that although 'basic' history of the PE might be learned (e.g. by boys) in terms of the male 'figureheads' [their power is based on being head of the military - in a technical or personal sense, although later kings may have been supposed to have had more 'female' skills than the earlier ones as the immediate military nature of their office has diminished] those who study the deeper politics of the empire (which includes anyone with a current interest in politics - i.e. anyone holding office of any kind) will study the wives (and other women) as just as important. Maybe we should do an alternative 'Queen list' or something? I think much of the basic data might be in there already. [BTW the intellectual orientation of women might mean that more of the empires artists, mages, and other 'intellectual' professions (e.g. lawyers, accountants, etc.) are women than are men??] Chris Jennings NTP Meridian Management Consultants -----Original Message----- From: Boughtflower, Stewart Mr (DSDC) [mailto:dsdcbhqbs@dlo.gsi.gov.uk] Sent: 20 July 2004 17:23 To: Chris Jennings Subject: Reply OK. Yes thanks. I was bored to tears but you've cheered me up. Went back to look at gender roles and stuff, but there isn't much. Despite at the beginning saying that up to 12 years boys and girls are given much the same upbringing (outside of the big cities anyway), the detail then mentions 'boys' or 'sons' at least 5 times, and doesn't once mention girls or daughters. Hmm. Unfortunately modern English doesn't have a gender nutral option and so I had defaulted to male. Please feel free to read him/her and so forth - you know, that thing that everybody writes so that that can continue to write in a more flowing, less stilted idiom. Firstly some age correlations: Human Half High 4 7 29 6 11 43 10 18 72 12 21 86 15 27 111 18 34 143 I think we can therefore safely ignore the pure elves therefore - they will have to be brought up in an entirely separate Most, with the exception of those who place (some) of their children into "mainstream" PE society, inorder to acheive integration with any semblence of parity, it possibly ought to take place if not alongside then in tandem with, human ilin training (?) system/society to most ilin (although presumably with some similar rituals/institutions which the ilin took from the elves in the first place Esp the zen bit and the CG Moral code). This might of course have implications for the social/cultural outlook of elf-ilin, but since the humans are still (one assumes) trying to emulate the elves this will be minimised for some time. Yes. The half-elves on the other hand, are close enough (and common enough) that they might be found in 'mixed' groups with human ilin. For most of the relevant age-groups they age at about half the rate: i.e. take twice as long to grow the same amount. That is the difference between 'average human' and 'average half-elf' and might well be similar to the range between 'late' and 'early' developers in the humans. [Of course the difference between an early developing human and a late developing half-elf will be much bigger and might prove to be a problem. I think this can be done though, but I would envisage the 'system' being a lot more 'individual' and personal than you have described it (Just so. A fault in my description, rather than your interpretation. this will also go a long way towards answering my concerns about the 'harshness' of the regime in an otherwise CG framework, but that is a different issue we covered at length). You imply that the system you have described is a n ilin 'ideal', but I would suggest reframing it so that instead of saying 'about their 10th birthday' it says 'when the child is judged ready (typically when they are about 10 years old, if human)'. Does that sound OK? Much better. [To me it fits with the self-contemplative 'self-awareness' thing as well]. OK now to the gender issue. Up to about 4 years [human equivalent] old ilin-class children are just infants. When tall enough they are first taught to ride, and given their first (basically toy) bow. [First query - I can see girls being taught to ride, as an attribute of their class, but what about the bow? Is this too more of a class thing than a sex/occupation thing? (Obviously this is not a problem - but I think it would make girls more likely to go on to be ilin than seems to be the case (or at least to want to). There are female ilin, but these seem to be something of the 'exceptions'. And the 'Maiden of the Spear'? Why spear? Why not bow?) Plugging in to your later arguements - as children their family possibly contains one or two women who are ilin. Thus setting the stage for one or two of the young girls to set out on the same path. Maidens of the Spear is an ancient title from the days of the Elven High King. Their martial art was preserved in Graugh and other isolationist enclaves. With the advent of the PWOC they came out to play. Today they may be just as hard to find as they were in the PEP. Being a Maiden of the Spear would be no bar to becoming ilin. However this doesn't mean that every female ilin is a maiden (o.t. spear). Far from it. Alternatively, might girls be given a 'more gender appropriate' tool - something they are expected to master by the time they come of age (at 15-ish)?] Absolutely. If their potential husband has spend his entire life up until the point of marriage practicing ilin skills then he's going to be woefully ill equipped to do anything else. Girls will read, write, negotiate, provision, plan and execute those plans. Able ilin who go into politics (hedgelord and onwards) are, one suspects, guided by their spouses, at lest intitially. At 6 this bow becomes a real one, and hunting becomes the 'household task' of the boys. Who apparently go off in single-sex unless theres a girlie ilin-in-waiting hunting parties, to train themselves, mostly unsupervised, apart from an older (12-15 year old) boy (given his first 'command' responsibility). Absolutely. The older boys, who are not only training more seriously, would also actually shoulder a greater part of the hunting burden. The younger ones are, after all, just learning. This is 'talked up' in the write up I gave you. Obviously the family are not going to starve and their diet doesn't need the extra, er, delicacies. But it is an important part of the boys learning - on only about their local (natural history) area and survival skills but actully more about responsibilty. So do the girls join these hunting parties?The ones who have set off down that path, yes. Or do they have their own girls-only ones (gathering??). Or do they have some different, but more 'feminine' duties? (Such as household chores, cooking, learning to sew, or something? - What is a 'female' task anyway, for 'normal' ilin-class women. To be aware of local politics (gossip), to command in the Lord's absence (hence the tacit approval of martial women) To look after the rest of the clan's horses when the ilin are off campaiging. To ensure that their extended family has sufficient resources and plans to cope with foreseeable events. Other than breeding. (Which I guess they don't practice, except perhaps childcare - if any are around?Care for one's siblings and elders is very important - this translates into care for the peasants in later life (as well)). "Officially", those are all the responsibility of the head of the household. If he's a newly qualified ilin, the chances are his young wife will be able to do them better than he. If he is promoted to Hedgelord his wives will again be there to assist him sa the scale of his responsibilities has grown. He has his own household, his children and so forth. Also he has to be aware of his ilin, their households (and be able to support them from his 'own' resources) and additionally and area of land (villages, farms and perhaps a town, border with another state, exterior border etc etc) to keep an eye on. He can place one or more of his wives, temporarily, into a situation where he could not place one of his ilin for fear of giving offence. Plus of course keeping an eye on his own future career. I'd guess most hedgelords breathe a sigh of relief when they net that canny third wife. But the time they get to Carnc they'll tend to attract a professional staff. But there aren't that many Carnc jobs going. Then the lives of wives become much more politicised. It begins to matter more what Clan they are from as the Lord of the state does not want his court unbalanced. Offspring (for dynastic marriage) come sharpely into focus. Moving into the wider circle needs a set of supporters (wives & mistresses) who can transfer their skills from the local arena of the hedgelord to the political arena of the Carnc. Now I am all for equality (I am working on a gender-diversity project this month, so it is on my mind). But my professional experience tells me that gender-roles are highly socialised. Young children - probably from the moment they are born are very keen to establish 'what sort' they are, and what they are therefore 'supposed' to do/behave. If young boys grow up seeing how adult men treat adult women, they will grow up expecting to treat women (and probably girls too) the same way. And vice versa. This seems to be a universal of human psychology. The weird thing is that there is no set definition of 'male' and 'female' behaviour. Whatever society has 'decided' is 'male' and 'female' will be picked up frighteningly quickly by children. And the PE/ilin culture is very much dominated by male warriors. So the martial and political skills are likely to be seen as distinctly masculine. From personal experience, of other people's children, even babies seem to try to recognise males from females, but academics reckon gender socialisation is well-established by the age of four. Until 8 or so children remain (apparently) 'receptive' to having their opinions changed. But attitudes to gender roles harden with puberty. Only possibly 'softening' again in quite mature people - which is due only to the growth of 'wisdom'. So I think 12 is far too late for boys and girls to have separate education, if the result is not going to be adults with much closer ideas of 'proper' roles than is presented as 'normal'. But then again, maybe it isn't? In our education system, girls and boys ostensibly have very similar experiences, but they end up with often sharply defined ideas of proper -adult roles. The key words are 'adult' roles (our education system does not require children to copy their parents as the ilin training does to some extent), and secondly 'ostensibly'. Our is more subtly divisive than many assume (including the teachers...) - partly because it is not just school it is the whole society that a child is exposed to: family, TV, films, fairy tales, grandparents, other people's families, etc. etc. You'd be surprised just how influential these things are (compared to say, school!). Anyway, more thinking later! DISCLAIMER: This email message was sent from an address under the control of the MOD. Privileged in confidence information maybe contained within this message, if you have received this information in error please destroy all copies in your possession or control and kindly notify the sender by reply email . The addressee or individual responsible for delivery of the message to such person may not forward, disclose or copy this e-mail to any third party without prior consent of the MOD. Furthermore, the MOD does not accept liability for any changes made to this email after it was sent. 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